General (ret.), MA in international relations Timo Kivinen led the Finnish Defence Forces as Chief of Defence from 2019 to 2024, the years in which Finland joined NATO. His link with Ukraine goes back much further: from 1998 to 2001 he served as Finland’s Defence Attaché covering Ukraine. Before the top job, he commanded the Karelia Brigade and Finland’s Defence Command. He still talks regularly with former colleagues on active duty, who work closely with their Ukrainian counterparts.
Finland and Ukraine have just signed a Drone Deal. Is it a sign that things are speeding up?
Yes, I think it’s a strong sign. And Finland is not alone; several European countries have similar deals. It matters because we need to learn from Ukraine: how your defence industry works and what the newest innovations are.
When we work together, it also strengthens our own defence industry. And it supports Ukraine, because if the war goes on, most of what we produce together with Ukrainian companies, at least in the beginning, will go to Ukraine. From my perspective, it’s a win-win deal.
Context: Finland is the 11th country to sign a Drone Deal with Ukraine, after Azerbaijan, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
What does Finland most need to learn from Ukraine right now?
With my military background, I’d say the biggest lesson is what modern warfare is and how fast it changes. Drones, electronic warfare, artificial intelligence, precision weapons, space-based capabilities and the ability to produce and adapt systems at scale. Ukraine has the practical experience of this environment. Our Army Commander was just in Ukraine for a week with his delegation to learn from it. That continuous contact is extremely important for us.
Then there is the whole-of-society side. Finland has its comprehensive defence concept, but there is still room to improve. How do you protect critical infrastructure, digital infrastructure, and energy infrastructure? This war is not only what happens on the front line. It’s about how a society copes when its critical infrastructure is under attack.
Russia keeps scaling up drone production. Can Europe keep pace?
If you compare Europe’s resources with russia’s – the size of our economies, our population. We have overwhelming resources. So, resources are not the challenge. Political will is.
The framework is there. NATO has agreed to go up to 5% of GDP: 3.5% directly to defence and 1.5% to support it, including the defence industrial base. The hard part is practice. We still have peacetime regulation, while technology develops extremely fast. Procurement is slow compared with what we need, and European countries are not in the same wartime production cycle as you are.
So we need a defence innovation network in our countries – a concept that is in place and can be activated if needed, to innovate, adapt and scale up production fast. The only way to build it is to learn from Ukraine: not only the armed forces, but how government, industry and citizens work together under extreme pressure.
What does “battle-tested in Ukraine” mean for military procurement in Finland?
In many European countries, it is now practically a requirement. When a company comes to the Finnish Defence Forces to present a product, the first question is: is it battle-tested in Ukraine? If not, the answer may be: go to Ukraine first. And it’s not only weapons. It’s unmanned systems, command and control, sensors.
But buying is not enough. Systems we have today may be outdated within months. When you cooperate with a Ukrainian company, you must grow your own knowledge, so that if the bad day comes, we can innovate and scale up production the way Ukraine has. That’s critical.
What is your advice to Finnish and European companies that want to work with Ukraine’s defence sector?
First, establish contacts. Then dig deep into the companies you may work with in the future. If you find a common way forward, build a business model that works for both sides. A win-win deal usually lasts. If it’s not win-win, it may go up and come down pretty fast.
There is a lot of movement right now after the Drone Deal. Companies on both sides are looking for counterparts. Those who are already embedded in the Ukrainian defence industry have the advantage. Several Finnish companies have worked in Ukraine for years. They know how to cooperate with a country at war, and that is a new environment for most.
Is there anything Ukraine can learn from Finland?
When you have been at war for several years, there is not much we can teach you. We learn from you. But maybe space is a domain where we could contribute. And command and control: From the history of Nokia, Finland has a lot of know-how in C4I systems, and Finnish companies have sold them to other nations. I know you have developed the Delta system very fast, but there may still be something to share.
Your dispersed production system is something I admire. You produce in garages and small sites, not only big factories, because big factories can always be targeted.
For a frontline nation, dispersed capacity is more resilient than centralised. That is a lesson for Finland too.
How will Finnish-Ukrainian defence cooperation develop in 2027?
It has been intensifying ever since the full-scale invasion, and I don’t see it going in a different direction. Political leaders support deepening it, and there is strong support for Ukraine among the Finnish population. russia’s information operations and hybrid activity won’t change that. This cooperation is important for the security of both our countries.
And what does Ukrainian resilience look like from a Finnish point of view?
You have shown the resilience of the whole society, not only the armed forces. In many Western countries, people in the same situation would already be tired. You may be tired too, but the determination to defend your country is still there.
I have always said that the most important defence line is between your ears.
If that is in place, you have a real chance to win. We other Europeans must also be ready to accept casualties to defend democracy.
As for the armed forces, it’s a huge story how fast they have rebuilt their doctrines around new technology: drones, counter-drone systems, C4I, deep strikes into russian territory. Western deep-strike capability has been built on manned systems. Unmanned systems are where Ukraine is ahead of everyone. There is so much for all of us to learn from that, Europeans and Americans as well.
Thank you, General Kivinen, for your time and candour.
At Miltton Ukraine, we connect Finnish and Nordic companies with Ukraine’s defence and resilience ecosystem. If the drone deal has raised questions for your company, we’re glad to talk.